Curse

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 02, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Here's a list of things I'd like to see changed for sins. None of these should be game-breaking, and will allow the Assassin as a primary class be useful on splits, once again. The focus of these changes is to bring Assassins into play for PvP - no consideration was made for PvE.

All damage numbers are around what should be 12-14 in the attribute if the range is not specified. All teleports if not mentioned below will have no Aftercast and fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

E=Energy, R=Recharge, C=Activation Time/Cast Time

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Black Lotus Strike: Offhand Attack 5E, 8R. You gain +5 Energy. Deals +30 damage. Must strike a hexed foe. (No other req)

The main change in this is to revert it back from being a lead attack to being an offhand attack that does not require a lead attack to precede it. This was a key skill in many combos and was never overpowered itself.
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[E] Fox's Promise: Enchantment. 5E, 1/2C,15R. For 15 seconds you're dagger attacks can not be blocked.

This elite is currently seeing no use. It's inherent downside is not necessary, and a decreased cast time will make it actually viable to maintain and better than just using Exposed Defenses.
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[E] Locust's Fury: Enchantment. 5E, 1/2C, 10R. For 10 seconds your attacks have a +50% chance to double attack.

This skill still isn't worth bringing, buffing it by reducing the cast time and energy cost will make it more user friendly.
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[E] Way of the Assassin: Stance. 5E, 12R. For 0...9 seconds you attack 33% faster while wielding daggers.

The critical % was removed so that the attack speed can be a constant 33%. This is much more appealing to use than the current way it is, seeing as you can easily go warrior secondary in order to have an IAS.
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Unsuspecting Strike: Lead Attack. 5E, 2R. Deals +30 damage. Deals +20 more damage if target has over 90% health.

Traded energy cost for less damage. It is now harder to spike out characters with 100+ damage in one attack.
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Blades of Steel: Dual Attack. 5E, 8R. Deals +15 damage (Maximum 50) for each recharging Dagger Attack Skill.

Nerfed the damage cap from 60 to 50 in order to bring this skill in line with other dual attacks' damage.
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Death Blossom: Dual Attack. 5E, 8R. Deals +30 damage to target. Deals an additional +20 damage to target foe and adjacent foes if target was enchanted. Must follow Offhand.

Increased recharge to make it less spamable and abusable by R/A's. Deals damage comparable to Blades of Steel if target is enchanted with the added bonus of AoE in that situation. This is in balance with Blades of Steel and someone could easily take either one. This provides for more diversity in Assassin builds.
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Disrupting Stab: Lead Attack. 5E, 1/2C, 10R. Interrupt an action. If that action was a skill, it is disabled for 10 seconds.

As a base speed attack, it isn't that desirable to use as an interrupt. This will be for assassins what a d shot is to rangers. It gives the assassin utility and a counter against split defense if used with a teleport. Recharge increased to 10 to prevent spamming.
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Falling Lotus Strike: Offhand Attack. 5E, 8R. Deals +30 damage. You gain +8 energy. Must strike Knocked Down Foe.

Reduced recharge to allow it to be on the same timeline with Falling Spider. Reduced energy gain accordingly. This provides for smother assassin combos as the timing will allow it to be used more frequently with other 8R skills. Lowered damage by 5.
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Fox Fangs: Offhand Attack. 5E, 1/2C, 3R. Deals +25 damage. Unblockable. You lose your current stance. Must follow Lead.

Ending your stance with this attack will help mitigate abuse of this skill when used with an IAS such as Lightning Reflexes or a block stance such as Escape.
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Golden Fang Strike: Offhand Attack. 5E, 4R. Deals +20 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound if you are enchanted. Must follow Lead.

This skill shouldn't be useless without an enchantment, the enchantment should just provide a major benefit to using the skill. The added damage will bring it more inline with other offhand attacks. This will provide for more diverse assassin combos.
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Golden Lotus Strike: Lead Attack. 5E, 5R. Deals +30 Damage. Gain 8 energy if enchanted.

Again, this skill should have a use without an enchantment, benefiting a lot if you do have an enchantment.
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Golden Phoenix Strike: Offhand. 5E, 8R. Deals +35 damage if under the effects of an enchantment. (Does not fail if not enchanted). (No other req).

This skill shouldn't "miss" if you are not under the effects of an enchantment, just simply not deal any additional damage.
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[E] Golden Skull Strike: Offhand. 5E, 1/2C, 12R. Deals +35 damage. Causes dazed for 5 seconds if you are under the effects of an enchantment. Must follow Lead.

As an elite, it should be a good skill to bring. It is still good without an enchantment, but it benefits greatly if you do have an enchantment.
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Horns of the Ox: Dual Attack. 5E, 8R. Deals +15 damage. Causes knockdown if target is not adjacent to any of its allies.

Buffed damage a little bit and reduced the recharge a little. The current Horns is somewhat of a joke only used to continue the rest of a combo. The 8R will make it have better timing synergy with other skills.
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Jungle Strike: Offhand. 5E, 1/2C, 8R. Same description, yet fix the damage bug in this skill or revert to old description. Must follow Lead.

Currently will deal the base damage if not crippled, or only the bonus damage if crippled, but not both. It used to deal both, before it was AoE. It should be fixed. 8R puts it on the same timeline as the other attack skills.
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[E] Shattering Assault: Dual Attack. 5E, 4R. Deals +50 damage. Removes an enchantment. Unblockable if you are not under the effects of an enchantment. Must follow Offhand.

Allowing this skill to be blocked while enchanted prevents there from being too much synergy with Golden Fox Strike. Reduced the energy to 5 to bring it in line with Blades of Steel and Death Blossom.
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[E] Temple Strike: Offhand Attack. 5E, 12R. Deals +30 Damage. Causes knock-down if target is moving or attacking. (No req).

Currently we have two elite offhand attacks that cause Dazed. Having an elite "Golden Phoenix Strike" without the enchantment requirement and causes knockdown will be an interesting change. Will definitely provide for more diverse assassin combos and an alternative to using an elite shadow step.
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Trampling Ox: Dual Attack. 5E, 8R. Causes Knockdown. Deals +20 damage if target is crippled.

Swapped which effect was reliant on cripple. This prevents combos using this skill to not be completely reliant on a team not removing cripple, but significantly hurt if it is.
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Dark Prison: Hex. 10E, 1/4C, 20R. Shadow Step to target foe. Foe moves 33% slower for 0...4 seconds. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Lowered the recharge to bring it inline with other teleports.
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Exposed Defense: 10E, 1C, 20R. Same description.

Lowered recharge by 5 seconds to bring it on the same timeline as the teleports.
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Impale: 5e, 3/4C, 20R. Same description.

Increased the recharge and slightly lowered the cast time. It will feel a lot smother, yet still interruptable if used predictably.
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Shadow Fang: 10E, 1/4C, 30R. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Reduced recharge to 30 seconds to make it able to be used more frequently.
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[E] Shadow Prison: 5E, 1/4C, 20R. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Reduced Energy to make it better than Dark Prison. Recharge set back to 20 as it can no longer be used by warriors to spike with.
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[E] Beguiling Haze: 10E, 1/4C, 20R. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Slightly lowered the energy cost. This will be easier to combo with, without needing as many energy management attacks on ones bar.
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Death Charge: Enchantment 5E, 1/4C, 20R. Shadow Step to target foe. For 5 seconds you have +1...10 Health Regeneration if this foe has more health than you. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Having the health effect come in the form of an enchantment will create synergy with the "Golden" attack skills. Will encourage more aggressive splitting, when your health is lower than your opponent.
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[E] Shadow Form (PvP): 5E, 1C, 30R. For 5...20 seconds, you can not be the target of hexes and are immune to conditions. Disables all non-assassin skills for 10 seconds.

A split elite that makes it much easier to escape a base against a snarebot or cripshot. Will disable non-assassin skills to prevent abuse by Dervishes or flag runners of a different profession. Comparable to Aura of Displacement in usefulness in leaving a base. You can still be killed while under this enchantment or have it removed now.
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Shadow Refuge: Enchantment 5E, 1C, 8R. For 4 seconds you have +5...9...10 Health Regeneration and can not be inflicted with new conditions. Ends if you attack.

Shadow Refuge can now be used as a "pre-prot" against conditions, useful for engaging splits or escaping bases. Will not remove current conditions, just prevent the addition of new ones.
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[E] Aura Of Displacement: Enchantment. -1E Upkeep, 5E, 1/4C, 20R. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Reduced initial energy cost.
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Shadow Walk: Stance. 5E, 30R. For 30 Seconds... same description. No longer disables attack skills for 1 second. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

The disables attack skills clause was added to stop warriors, it is not necessary now.
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[E] Wastrel's Collapse: Does not disable non-dagger attack skills. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

If adding the Crit Strikes clause, you can remove the non-dagger attack clause. Provides for the possibility of Bulls Strike Sins.
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Most of these changes will increase the viability of new combos, allow for unused elites to see some game play or increase the mobility of the Assassin. The goal of this is not to create a combo that can instant-kill as easily as it once was able to.

LaNcE ReDsToRm · Sep 02, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I like all the teleports...especially the no aftercast part...

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 02, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

/not signed .

That isn't relevent, I wasn't asking for signatures.

However, why do you disagree with these changes? What skills in particular and why is it a bad thing for the game if these changes occur? Do you have any particular bias against Assassins or are your opinions grounded on logic?

turbo234 · Sep 02, 2009, 08:13 AM // 08:13

tl;dr. but i did catch the elite bulls strike

Quote:

[E] Temple Strike: Offhand Attack. 5E, 12R. Deals +30 Damage. Causes knock-down if target is moving or attacking. (No req).

Currently we have two elite offhand attacks that cause Dazed. Having an elite "Golden Phoenix Strike" without the enchantment requirement and causes knockdown will be an interesting change. Will definitely provide for more diverse assassin combos and an alternative to using an elite shadow step.

its sexy

M @ T · Sep 02, 2009, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

That isn't relevent, I wasn't asking for signatures.

However, why do you disagree with these changes? What skills in particular and why is it a bad thing for the game if these changes occur? Do you have any particular bias against Assassins or are your opinions grounded on logic?

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'm not trying to degrade your efforts mate. But for instance,

Quote:

[E] Shadow Prison: 5E, 1/4C, 20R. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Quote:

Black Lotus Strike: Offhand Attack 5E, 8R. You gain +5 Energy. Deals +30 damage. Must strike a hexed foe. (No other req)

This sounds like the old SP sin, which was nerfed for a reason. I said sounds like because Sp was used by wars too. In your case they can't though but still.. It's not so much about energy but rather about a 20 recharge hex which makes a foe move 66% slower and, for a sin, a perfect way to use highly sought after off hand and dual attacks.

I don't have much time, so I can't read all your post because I'm at work, the few I read made me think of those days when people whined about SP sins etc etc. They did so for a reason.

Fate Crusher · Sep 02, 2009, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

That isn't relevent, I wasn't asking for signatures.

However, why do you disagree with these changes? What skills in particular and why is it a bad thing for the game if these changes occur? Do you have any particular bias against Assassins or are your opinions grounded on logic?

He's a warrior, of course he's not going to like these ideas ^^

I like them however. Nice to see not only you're opening up teleporting but also new combo variations and i have to say, good job

Hopefully Anet get it right next time and don't cause a 6 minute final.

BlackSephir · Sep 02, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

I'd add "your stances are disabled for x...ys" to shadowsteps, being able to shadowstep without an aftercast and deal GREAT NUMBERS isn't good.

M @ T · Sep 02, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

He's a warrior, of course he's not going to like these ideas ^^

Yes, but im not biased as some

. OP is OP, just as WE was and MB is right now for instance and as some of the suggestions here like SP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

I like them however. Nice to see not only you're opening up teleporting but also new combo variations and i have to say, good job

Hopefully Anet get it right next time and don't cause a 6 minute final.

Ofcourse you do.

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 02, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

This sounds like the old SP sin, which was nerfed for a reason. I said sounds like because Sp was used by wars too. In your case they can't though but still.. It's not so much about energy but rather about a 20 recharge hex which makes a foe move 66% slower and, for a sin, a perfect way to use highly sought after off hand and dual attacks.

You need to analyse why it was overpowered.

The reason it was overpowered: Blades of Steel dealing +120 Damage and hitting with daggers (about 30 each time for a +60) followed by a 1/4 second cast of Impale for +80 damage and Deep Wound (~100 damage). This all happened under Burst Of Aggression, compressing the Blade's hits into less than 3/4th second.

So tl;dr: 120+60+80+100 = 360 damage in the course of 1 second is what made the old SP sin overpowered.

Instead of nerfing any of those two skills, they nerfed Black Lotus Strike to make the combo impossible. That just avoided the issue; Black Lotus was never an issue.

Granted, the old bar would become usable again with my suggested changes, I would suggest limiting the duration of Shadow Prison to 4 seconds at a high spec, and the nerf to Impale and Blades as suggested will prevent it from having as much damage as quickly. Under those conditions, it is much easier for monks to catch.

M @ T · Sep 02, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

You need to analyse why it was overpowered.

The reason it was overpowered: Blades of Steel dealing +120 Damage and hitting with daggers (about 30 each time for a +60) followed by a 1/4 second cast of Impale for +80 damage and Deep Wound (~100 damage). This all happened under Burst Of Aggression, compressing the Blade's hits into less than 3/4th second.

So tl;dr: 120+60+80+100 = 360 damage in the course of 1 second is what made the old SP sin overpowered.

Instead of nerfing any of those two skills, they nerfed Black Lotus Strike to make the combo impossible. That just avoided the issue; Black Lotus was never an issue.

Granted, the old bar would become usable again with my suggested changes, I would suggest limiting the duration of Shadow Prison to 4 seconds at a high spec, and the nerf to Impale and Blades as suggested will prevent it from having as much damage as quickly. Under those conditions, it is much easier for monks to catch.

You do have good points there indeed, but also SP used to be 5e 1/4c 20r i believe, and now it's something like 10e 1/4c 25r and in this way it prevented other classes using it too(well, warriors did anyway).

Then again BoA was nerfed but you still have Flurry which works great for a sin still, because of the 7-17 damage range.

In a few words, with your suggestions, SP sin will come to play but won't be as devastating as it used to be right? But still the sin will spike in around 1.5 seconds with an IAS for a ton of damage, his attacks will most likely be unblockable from Expose Defences and decrease a foe's speed by 66%.

Lastly, Black Lotus Strike also helped Sp sins with energy management after casting Exposed Defences and SP. I believe that is why it was nerfed, otherwise they might have "Smiter's Booned" SP

.

EDIT: I don't want to start an e-fight in any way, when i get home I'll read your post carefully. Let's see what other people have to say too.

EDIT2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

[E] Temple Strike: Offhand Attack. 5E, 12R. Deals +30 Damage. Causes knock-down if target is moving or attacking. (No req).

This actually seems cool!

Xsiriss · Sep 02, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Some of the things are ok,like golden skull strike.But I still want my temple strike,it's a generic shutdown,all it needs is a slightly lower recharge and energy cost.

Also your suggestions for all the elites are too tame,having their recharge time just about cover their duration is never a good idea.That said in PvE WoTA will still need see use and also with the current activation times on dagger skills there's no realy need for PvP,taking flurry for the parts you actually need and not wasting a leet skill.

Pugs Not Drugs · Sep 02, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

lolol youre foxes is op

N1ghtstalker · Sep 02, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

immune to hexes and conditions for 20 seconds long with a 30 recharge?
for pvp?
burn in hell
/notsigned

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 02, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I'd add "your stances are disabled for x...ys" to shadowsteps, being able to shadowstep without an aftercast and deal GREAT NUMBERS isn't good.

you'd just use your stance before your teleport then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

lolol youre foxes is op

How so? Being tied to Dagger Attack Skills only, being an elite, and taking up a crucial spot on your bar, it has little room for abuse. It isn't much better than the current Foxes', other than not having the clause "Ends if you miss".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Some of the things are ok,like golden skull strike.But I still want my temple strike,it's a generic shutdown,all it needs is a slightly lower recharge and energy cost.

Even buffed to that, you could just as easily take Golden Skull Strike for your dazed followed by Blinding Powder. In either case nobody actually uses this skill in PvP. If you change it, it would actually be a skill that you'd see a lot of people using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Also your suggestions for all the elites are too tame,having their recharge time just about cover their duration is never a good idea.

Why? That statement is depending on what the effect is, allow me to show you by extremes: if it is Shadow Form in its current state: sure thats overpowered. If it is Healing Breeze, nobody complains. Therefore it can be a good idea sometimes. :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

That said in PvE WoTA will still need see use and also with the current activation times on dagger skills there's no realy need for PvP,taking flurry for the parts you actually need and not wasting a leet skill.

Flurry isn't good for Assassins in PvP. I'll leave it at that. If you don't believe me, fine, but I know if the buff to WotA was made I would be taking it- frees up your secondary as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

immune to hexes and conditions for 20 seconds long with a 30 recharge?
for pvp?
burn in hell
/notsigned

That's spec'd heavily into Shadow Arts. If you have 15 in Shadow Arts, and are using that as your elite, then I see no problem because the inherent downside is not having enough room for damage, or energy. It is easily stripped and you are not invincible to damage. Also you are limited to your Assassin skills, which limits your capabilities as well.

Charlotte the Harlot · Sep 02, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I'm a bit hesitant with trampling ox, it would make long combos much more easily accessible. Shadow form is a cool idea but I don't see it being used all that much, maybe lower duration and add a speed boost or lower further and potentially add a shadow step (would interact well with golden skills). Making shadow steps sin only and actually usable seems like the most needed change. The changes too most attack skills seem good but I'd still be hesitant with black lotus since it easily allows for dual heavy combos. Also buffing leaping mantis sting would be cool 4r and a little more damage would go a long way towards making lead>offhand>duals a bit more practical.

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 02, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

I'm a bit hesitant with trampling ox, it would make long combos much more easily accessible.

That point has been brought up on QQ forums as well, I understand how it could be a little much. Like I said, these are just some ideas, they could still use some tweaking. These are still better than the current state of assassins though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

Shadow form is a cool idea but I don't see it being used all that much, maybe lower duration and add a speed boost or lower further and potentially add a shadow step (would interact well with golden skills).

If you start adding more to it, it looks like it could easily become broken and there would be no defense against sin's splitting into your base. Its more of a "OH SHIT" button that you hit when you're getting collapsed on and want a chance to get out.

Quote:

Making shadow steps sin only and actually usable seems like the most needed change. The changes too most attack skills seem good but I'd still be hesitant with black lotus since it easily allows for dual heavy combos. Also buffing leaping mantis sting would be cool 4r and a little more damage would go a long way towards making lead>offhand>duals a bit more practical.

Agreed.

Charlotte the Harlot · Sep 03, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

If you start adding more to it, it looks like it could easily become broken and there would be no defense against sin's splitting into your base. Its more of a "OH SHIT" button that you hit when you're getting collapsed on and want a chance to get out.

Yeah thats a definite issue but I just don't see a defensive elite like that ever really getting any use on a non-gimmicky bar. A sins bar is so tight and its elite is so important that I don't see a sin being able to fit it, which is the issue with basically any non shadow step or attack skill sin elite. If it were to compress the bar in some way then maybe

M @ T · Sep 03, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Flurry isn't good for Assassins in PvP. I'll leave it at that. If you don't believe me, fine, but I know if the buff to WotA was made I would be taking it- frees up your secondary as well.

Actually it is good because of the 7-17 damage range given by daggers. Your dps drops for like 3 damage compared to any other 33% IAS like Frenzy.

So you can just spam Flurry without worrying about a thing.

BlackSephir · Sep 03, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

you'd just use your stance before your teleport then

Then shadow stepping should cancel your current stance.

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 04, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Actually it is good because of the 7-17 damage range given by daggers. Your dps drops for like 3 damage compared to any other 33% IAS like Frenzy.

So you can just spam Flurry without worrying about a thing.

You need all the damage you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Then shadow stepping should cancel your current stance.

That would be very annoying but that would solve the problem I suppose. Then you'll see Weapon of Aggression being used though :3